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  • A union supporter against EFCA

    by: Solomon Kleinsmith

    Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 14:32:04 PM CDT


    I actually tried for weeks to argue my way out of thinking this is garbage. I have the same reservations as Kyle, but I would have supported the bill as is if that was all I was worried about. The bill, which I have read, is something to the tune of 90% great. Normally I'd support a bill like that, using the whole principle of not letting perfect being the enemy of good, but that 10% is what happens to hold the real weight of the bill.

    I wasn't active, as I was busy with local politicking and school at the time (among other reasons), but I was a member of Lozier's sheet metal workers bargaining unit for a few years. While I didn't always think they were very effective, I'm still of the opinion that unions are an absolutely essential part of our economy.

    I've only seen one poll on the issue, which went decidedly against this kind of bill, but I hope to see some real polling on it soon. What I don't get, and what nearly everyone who I know who isn't a hard core partisan also doesn't get when they're given the facts and arguments from both sides, is how requiring a secret ballot isn't the one thing that should be a requirement, if anything is? Its incredibly disingenuous to fight for years to limit the ability of corporations to potentially coerce employees into not starting a union, but then replace it with a system that leaves union promoters open to doing so.

    Solomon Kleinsmith :: A union supporter against EFCA
    This argument is usually followed up with diatribes about the commenter being called a union hater and listing all sorts of good things that unions have done for us. I applaud Kyle for going public with his disagreement with the bill. I also happen to share the view of many people on here, most of whom would probably never have the cahones to come out and say it, that Terry Moore is one of the (if not the) worst figures on the Omaha political scene, but I personally can thank the sheet metal workers bargaining unit for helping me get through the last three years of PT college without debt, not to mention the 40 hour work week, pensions and all those fun things, heheh.

    The most honest arguments I've seen for this bill have basically amounted to a power grab, or getting even for years of unequal treatment under law. This bill could be so much more if union think tankers spent a fraction of the time that they are now coming up with spin to convince people this is a good bill, and put that into crafting a law that built a system where the penalties were so severe, and monitoring of the period where union organizing was being considered, that coercion from the managerial side would be made much harder, if not nearly impossible. But no, we're sitting here arguing over whether or not the secret ballot should be required or whether its okay to put into a system where coercion by union supporters is ensured.

    Of course its going to happen. This isn't a comment against union supporters, its an observation of human nature. Employers often use coercive tactics to try and stop union organizing because they disagree with the idea and because they think they can get away with it. All employers don't do this, but enough do to warrant laws limiting these actions. Union organizers will do this because they passionately want unions to expand into more workplaces, and because of human nature, many of them will use coercive (in this case, in your face peer pressure) to pressure people into doing what they want... again... because they think they can get away with it.

    This bill would already have been passed had it been a revision of the process that attempted to limit potential coercion of any kind, and from any quarter. It may still squeek through... and worse things could happen... my heart is split between my loyalty to unions in general and my belief in democratic principles... (this is an edit... meant to say the following-->) however my my mind is entirely against this. The secret ballot shouldn't be anyone's decision, it should be automatically mandatory.

    I knew it was bound to happen sooner rather than later, but in this case, I'm seeing the first bold faced example that matches the hyperpartisan nature of some of the W's greatest hits... that even scare away some moderate D's. If the Democratic majority continues to serve up bills like this, and pork laden omnibus bills, 2010 is going to be a year where it may become even more likely that Dems see themselves farther from that 60 vote majority in the senate than the other way around.

    I'm happy that our Senator is a moderating force in Washington. Keep it up sir.

    Tags: (All Tags)
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    I don't think you're a union hater... (0.00 / 0)
    ...but I do you are dead wrong. As I wrote earlier, all the Employee Free Choice Act does is allow employees, not employers, to decide how they vote on elections between two options that are already in place: an NLRB election, which has a secret ballot, or majority sign up, called "card check." The only piece of the puzzle that change is who decides the voting process -- the employee from the employer.

    That just makes sense to me. It's certainly not a hyper-partisan power grab. The opposition to the bill is coming from Senators who have a history of supporting big business -- i.e. 99% of Republicans and a handful of Democrats like Sens. Bayh and Nelson.

    Just food for though, here is a poll from November that shows clear support for EFCA:

    Nearly two-thirds (60%) of voters believe in even in these tough economic times, it is important to pass the Employee Free Choice Act, and nearly one-third (31%) of voters strongly believe it should be a priority for Congress.

    What's interesting about this poll is that if follows a barrage of EFCA attack ads across the country without much of a response from pro-EFCA unions or organizations. You would think the polling numbers would be lower.

    Nebraska Netroots | A new community blog for Nebraska Democrats!


    Of course its a power grab... (0.00 / 0)
    If it wasn't a power grab they'd look for a way to make it so NEITHER union organizers or employers would have the power to choose how to make the final choice of whether a bargaining unit represents workers at a job site or not. The goal of this bill isn't to create a level playing field, its to create a playing field skewed in favor of labor. I don't think thats right, you do... this is obviously a philosophical difference.

    I'd like to see that poll, because the only polling I've seen was done by a news agency, not an organization with an axe to grind, and it showed nearly 70% against the bill. Regardless... this is too big of a deal to rely on just a few polls... I'm sure there will be a ton of them now that its getting headlines.


    [ Parent ]
    Sorry... (0.00 / 0)
    ...meant to post the link:

    http://firedoglake.com/2008/11...

    I do want the power skewed toward labor because the middle class working American deserves to have that power not corporate interests. Honestly, I agree with you that it should just be a secret a ballot with a simple majority vote but the Employee Free Choice Act is better then what we currently have and I've got no qualms supporting it.

    Nebraska Netroots | A new community blog for Nebraska Democrats!


    [ Parent ]
    Funny.... (0.00 / 0)
    You just stated of the EFCA:
    [Y]our analysis of the legislation is a pretty wide stretch in my opinion. You've fallen pray (sic) to the right wings constant barrage of false attacks on the Employee Free Choice Act....

    It makes sense and I've yet to hear a reasonable, and factual, argument against it.


    Yet, you now state:
    Honestly, I agree with you that it should just be a secret a ballot with a simple majority vote...

    That's a more extreme position than I take against the EFCA in its current form.  I'm by no means fixed on the idea that unions should only be formed by a secret ballot.  All I've proposed is that a supermajority should be required to bypass an election or - in the alternative - a minority of employees opposed to collective bargaining should have some reasonable opportunity to call for a vote by secret ballot.

    From now on, could you please refrain from drinking more than one flavor of Kool-Aid at the same time?


    [ Parent ]
    I think you'd be the last one... (0.00 / 0)
    ...to talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. But that's for another time and probably another place.

    My position is not more radical then your belief that unions needs to get a super majority in order to be formed. I believe if a simple majority is enough to elect the President of the United States then it is probably good enough to form a union in the work place.

    Maybe, we can form a new government where the 53% of Americans who voted for Obama get to live under his rule and the other 46% get to deal with President McCain. Heck, we can give Rhode Island to all those Nadar and Barr supporters. That, of course, would be ridiculous.

    I would be okay with just having the secret ballot -- which would, as Sol states, remove a lot of the controversy -- but I wouldn't get behind your super majority idea. Also, I think your post is deceptive to imply that the bill changes it from a super majority, which it doesn't.

    Either way, your point that the writers of the bill should have sought to create further reform does mean EFCA is a bad bill and should be shot down. The choice -- the reality right now is that there is a choice -- should fall to corporations or share holders. That power should belong to the workers who have their best interests in mind.

    Nebraska Netroots | A new community blog for Nebraska Democrats!


    [ Parent ]
    Don't mischaracterize my position (0.00 / 0)
    A simple majority in an election by secret ballot should absolutely be enough to authorize union representation.  It's only when labor organizers want to bypass the election process that I believe a supermajority should be necessary - putting a reasonable check on coersion by those seeking union representation.

    [ Parent ]
    What if it's the workers... (0.00 / 0)
    who want to bypass the election process?
    coersion(sic)


    [ Parent ]
    It's all... (0.00 / 0)
    ...in how I took this comment:

    Although I can understand a supermajority having the authority to certify a union, a mere 50% of employees should not be able to subject the other 50%-minus-1 to collective bargaining without their having an opportunity to be heard in a free and fair election.

    I'll take you at your word. I apologize.

    I stand by my previous comments though. EFCA's not a perfect bill -- and I don't agree with you on the super majority -- but it should be passed because as the system currently stands, employers shouldn't have the power to decide the method of election. Plus, EFCA greatly increases the penalties for coersion on both sides which is good.

    I'm very open to reforming the process, but I still haven't heard a good reason to change my position on EFCA.

    Nebraska Netroots | A new community blog for Nebraska Democrats!


    [ Parent ]
    Your logic is sound, we just disagree with it. (0.00 / 0)
    If you think the ends justify the means here, which is fine, then I don't think there is a logical way to change your mind. We just start off from different places.

    [ Parent ]
    invitation to discuss Employee Free Choice in person (0.00 / 0)
    Hi guys--as many of you know we (SEIU Change That Works) are working on this bill (and healthcare reform) this year in our state.

    We invite you to attend a meeting to discuss the Employee Free Choice Act.

    There is some misinformation here and we would love an opportunity to talk to everyone who would like to learn more and discuss how we can all help pass this bill that will help working families.

    Watch our facebook page for the exact details, we are planning the meeting and will post the details here--it will be sometime the week of March 23rd.

    http://www.facebook.com/group....  


    Public Support and the Employee Free Choice Act (0.00 / 0)
    A Hart Research survey taken in January 2009 shows that a majority of the public supports the previsions in the Employee Free Choice Act.

    Americans overwhelmingly support the Employee Free Choice Act.  After hearing descriptions of its three main provisions (see question language below), 73% of adults favor the legislation.  Thirty-seven percent (37%) of adults strongly favor the Employee Free Choice Act.  


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